FOXMAN

Abraham Foxman talks about criticism of Israel

By Ami Eden

The following is an edited transcript of an interview conducted in September with the national director of the Anti-Defamation League, Abraham Foxman, about his new book, “The Deadliest Lies: The Israel Lobby and The Myth of Jewish Control.” It has been further edited by the Jewish Review to address only issues mentioned in stories in this Review.

JTA: Why did you write the book?

FOXMAN: When Mearsheimer and Walt’s article appeared, what I was very much concerned about was that it would give this whole issue of Jewish power, Jewish control, Jewish influence, Israel lobby, etc., a sense of credibility that it has never had in the U.S., except for maybe before World War II. My concern was that it would stimulate discussion in the mainstream—which it did the moment the article appeared—and that for the years to come it will become a resource for universities, primarily for every course in government, every course in foreign policy, to use as a point of departure, and that there was not much else out there.

So the motivation was that audience. It’s not to convince the Jews but to convince others.

In Davos in January, there was a professor from MIT who I happened to be sitting next to. When he found out who I was, he said, “Do you mind, could we talk and you won’t take this personally. I’m a professor of physics, I spent a lot of time studying science. I’ve been hearing all this stuff about this Israel lobby, this Jewish lobby. Is it true? How much of it is true?” So we spent about an hour-and-a-half in a coffee shop, and he said to me, “You could do us a service. There are a lot of people like me who aren’t sure; we don’t have time.” So that reinforced in me the idea that there needs to be that kind of book.

JTA: In countering Mearsheimer and Walt with your own book, you took the exact approach that critics of the Jewish community would want. Yet when The New York Times first wrote about the issue in August, the story wasn’t about your book versus their book, it was about Jewish institutions being pressured into canceling events with Mearsheimer and Walt. So didn’t the approach of trying to keep them out backfire?

FOXMAN: But that’s not accurate. They’re hyping their book. This is the oldest trick in the book, to buzz a book before it even comes out. They want to sell a book; they don’t want to debate it. They’re entitled, but don’t complain.

I am concerned about intimidation. Jews were not that vocal on Iraq because they didn’t think it was their issue. I think we were pleased, pleased that there is no Saddam Hussein who was sending checks to suicide bombers, who politically, if not militarily, was supporting the worst in the Palestinian movement. But we were not out in front.

Iran was the much greater concern to Israel. Iraq was not an existential threat to Israel. Iran is an existential threat. My concern is that this whole effort is to stifle us, to shut us up on this issue. That is of concern because I think we should speak up on Iran. We didn’t speak up on Iraq because it really wasn’t our issue. But they’re trying to put the blame on us, which I think is very detrimental because I worry that the Jewish community will now be hesitant to speak out where it is imperative that we speak out. Yes, Iran is a threat to the globe. Yes, Iran is a threat to the Gulf. Yes, Iran is a threat to Europe. But first and foremost that mamzer [Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad] says, “I will destroy the State of Israel; I will wipe the Jewish state off of the face of the map.”

JTA: At the end of the book you encourage Jews who disagree with Israel-related issues to engage the community, to weigh in with their opinions. But if you, the director of the ADL, can get attacked for inviting Thomas Friedman to speak, doesn’t the average left-wing Jew have a point when he complains that communal leaders just don’t want to hear any criticism of Israel?

FOXMAN: There is still an effort out there to shut me up, and if they can shut me up, they can shut the Jewish community up. The New York Times tried to do it by calling me hysterical, by calling me an Al Sharpton. They tried to intimidate me to the extent that I do stand up on behalf on the Jewish community, and that’s very, very serious.

But two problems can exist at the same time. If people in the general society are trying to silence the Jewish community, that doesn’t change the fact that some elements of the Jewish community are trying to silence others.

Absolutely. We have to fight both. One doesn’t justify the other.

JTA: Do groups need to do a better job of defending the ability of people to express criticisms?

FOXMAN: I fought a fight against extremism in the Jewish community, whether it was Meir Kahane or my rabbi [who issued harsh condemnations of Israeli Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin prior to his assassination], and I did it alone. I did it not only because I believed that it was right, but if we don’t do it, we have no credibility. We’re not immune to being extreme. And we woke up very tragically to how non-immune we are when Rabin was killed. When I spoke about it before, it’s because I understand that when we say words can kill, we’re not exempt; we don’t have a vaccine that words only kill if they’re from someone else but not from us. But the truth is there weren’t many people standing up.

JTA: By raising the specter of anti-Semitism, do you end up turning people against you?

FOXMAN: There is no choice. There is no choice. There is no choice. We can’t euphemize it. We have to understand that they are using it as a weapon against us to keep us quiet. Why is it you can call somebody a racist, no one says you are stifling debate? You can call somebody a homophobe. You can call somebody anti-Hispanic and no one says you’re stifling debate.

It’s not an exact science. If we controlled the media, it would be much easier.

JTA: During the past year The New York Times and The New York Times Magazine published several stories, including a profile of you, that could be read as suggesting that Jewish groups are not credible.

FOXMAN: It’s not just a New York Times problem. When my son came back from Harvard for the first time, he said, “Dad, you have a real job ahead of you.” I asked why. He said, “I was in the room with seven other first years, all non-Jews. Any time there is a question about yiddishkeit, Judaism, they turn to me and I’m the Gospel. But when the subject of Israel comes up, I have no credibility because I’m Jewish.”

JTA: So what do you do about that?

FOXMAN: You worry about your credibility. You don’t get intimidated, and every day you make this ‘“cheshbon” [you take stock]. And to me, the one thing that haunts me is my credibility because that’s all we got.

JTA: In the book you write, “Criticism that condemns Israel simply for existing and implies that the only way Israel can satisfy its critics is by disappearing is not legitimate.” So if opposing Israel’s existence crosses the line, does it cross the line to oppose the creation of a Palestinian state?

FOXMAN: Do I go after every Arab and Palestinian who says no to a Jewish existence? No, we talk about the concept. We’ve taken on racism in Israel, Jews who have expressed the thought that there is no room for Arabs. I criticized Jerry Falwell when he said horrendous things to Pat Robertson about Islam, just like I criticized Robertson when he said that Ariel Sharon was punished by God because he gave up Eretz Israel. I don’t shy away from being critical of our own. On the other hand, the enemy is bigger out there than it is within.